How or where do dogs get their style ? Opinions please.

[bamaman]

What do yall think of a dog who develops a style to keep dogs out of areas he or she doesn't want to get bit ? lets say a head dog for instance ,why does he go to the head ? is it because he doesn't want to get bit in the rear ? Now would you call this offensive or defensive style or both ? I have noticed on some of mine when you pet the head and work your way towards the rear the closer to the rear you get the more alert they become.Ok now say a rear end dog ,he goes for the rear because he doesn't want to get bit in the head ? So same question is it offensive or defensive or both ? And wonder how many folks got bit trying to pet the head of one of these ? just looking for some opinions.

[loot]

I believe it comes from their genes and from their schooling.

[Officially Retired]

Where does it come from, and is it offensive or defensive?

You should post your full question that you PM'd me :)

[texaco]

There born with it in there genes.We can help them by schooling them and teach them to adapt to different styles.And each dog differs one might be a defensive and the other an offensive fighter.There is also those dog's that get in the box with a hard biter and will switch there style up and get to biting on the ear to hold him/her out.

[bamaman]

You should post your full question that you PM'd me :)

I can do that Jack,I was thinking I may be to leading .

[EWO]

Styles can be genetic based on selection.

Smart owners make smart dogs by schooling the dog against as much as he might see when the only thing known about the other dog is his weight, show night.

Most often it is the combination of the two.

Sometimes a dog has a natural propensity to do things a certain way and will be hell bent on having his way.

We had a couple of Bolio crossed dogs that were hell bent on the rear end. They would take a beating to get there, didn't seem to care, would pass on another hold to eventually get there, just plain hell bent. When they got there it was total destruction. The kicker was even the most brutal head dogs didn't teach these two a thing, nor did it persuade them to go another route.

Had other dogs that adapted to anything in front of them, used defense to make offense, just had a ton of brains.

Some are reactionary others are pro-active in their actions.

Even within a family there are differences. In a roundabout way I would give a non answer and say it really depends on the dog. EWO

[Officially Retired]

I agree with EWO.

I have specifically bred for head dogs ever since I had Poncho.

My line is known for head dogs as a result, so I am 100% sure that style is (and can be) genetic.

However, as EWO said, some dogs are stubborn and will never change ... some dogs are "that way" (style-wise, genetically) ... while other dogs are smart, adaptable, teachable, and therefore capable of learning and growing as they go.

It is hard to say what any dog is going to be, which is why schooling is so important.

You can't know the teachability of any dog unless you school ... and school properly :idea:

I don't know Gr Ch Titere personally, but I would imagine by now he knows every trick in the book, and (the realities of age/wear notwithstanding) that has seen it all, and knows what to do in (and how to counter) virtually any situation.

I am sure he operated on "raw genetics" (or close to it) on his first deal, but by now is a totally-schooled pro in what he does.

Human fighters are the same way: it is hard to know any boxer's potential, until they've sparred on multiple occasions. Some will be "defensive" and not really want to get hit, some will be super-aggressive and not think about defense, while others will not want to box anymore after they get hurt. And then there will be those of deadly intent who learn defense, so that they can better-execute their attack. These are the ones who will become stars.

Human fighters may begin a pro career with "raw talent" and have some "natural moves" ... but they are at their peak when they have a certain amount of experience also.

And so it is with dogs. Both their natural aptitudes as well as their developed styles, gained through experience.

Some dogs are on the head because they're "afraid to get bit," while others are on the head because they know that's how to control the fight, but it takes a dogman to recognize the difference. This is where schooling in THE OWNER also comes into play ;)

Some owners can spot the difference right away ... some owners develop an eye through experience to be able to tell which-is-which ... while some idiots will never have a clue and never recognize the difference in what they see as they watch dogs :embarrassed:

Therefore, a total natural vs. acquired talent through schooling vs. "no chance to improve" applies to dogmen, as owners, same as it applies to the dogs we're trying to evaluate.

All of the above can be true, it depends on the dog, and it also depends on the dogman.

There is no "one" answer for anything.

Jack

[ragedog10]

Gr.Ch Titere is by far one of the smartest most complete dog there is, as has been stated it may not look impressive but it gets the job done and he throws it in his offspring. We try mismatch styles when breeding, dads a head specialist and mom stifle monster, we do that to get dogs that will ride then shoot back door. For the most part it works but then like EWO some are just gonna do what they want.

[arsuffi@att.net]

I agree with EWO.

I have specifically bred for head dogs ever since I had Poncho.

My line is known for head dogs as a result, so I am 100% sure that style is (and can be) genetic.

However, as EWO said, some dogs are stubborn and will never change ... some dogs are "that way" (style-wise, genetically) ... while other dogs are smart, adaptable, teachable, and therefore capable of learning and growing as they go.

It is hard to say what any dog is going to be, which is why schooling is so important.

You can't know the teachability of any dog unless you school ... and school properly :idea:

I don't know Gr Ch Titere personally, but I would imagine by now he knows every trick in the book, and (the realities of age/wear notwithstanding) that has seen it all, and knows what to do in (and how to counter) virtually any situation.

I am sure he operated on "raw genetics" (or close to it) on his first deal, but by now is a totally-schooled pro in what he does.

Human fighters are the same way: it is hard to know any boxer's potential, until they've sparred on multiple occasions. Some will be "defensive" and not really want to get hit, some will be super-aggressive and not think about defense, while others will not want to box anymore after they get hurt. And then there will be those of deadly intent who learn defense, so that they can better-execute their attack. These are the ones who will become stars.

Human fighters may begin a pro career with "raw talent" and have some "natural moves" ... but they are at their peak when they have a certain amount of experience also.

And so it is with dogs. Both their natural aptitudes as well as their developed styles, gained through experience.

Some dogs are on the head because they're "afraid to get bit," while others are on the head because they know that's how to control the fight, but it takes a dogman to recognize the difference. This is where schooling in THE OWNER also comes into play ;)

Some owners can spot the difference right away ... some owners develop an eye through experience to be able to tell which-is-which ... while some idiots will never have a clue and never recognize the difference in what they see as they watch dogs :embarrassed:

Therefore, a total natural vs. acquired talent through schooling vs. "no chance to improve" applies to dogmen, as owners, same as it applies to the dogs we're trying to evaluate.

All of the above can be true, it depends on the dog, and it also depends on the dogman.

There is no "one" answer for anything.

Jack
I agree 100 percent on what you said Jack. My dogs were Hetrick ,Tater x Faith and every time I bred I went to the TaterxFaith side of the pedigree. I really did not breed for any style just for extreme gameness as this blood already fought from nose to tail. I had plenty to select from as I kept all pups and carried at most times 60 or more dogs. After two to three generations of just my selected dogs they started to go to the mouth not breeding for that just for gameness. So my question, is this typical of all lines of bulldogs being bred for just gameness or was the TaterxFaith blood known for that[to go to the mouth] because I always heard back then was it was known just for being rugged and game, please respond as this is a good topic to discuss and take a little farther down the road. Yours in the Game Johnny

[CYJ]

Ditto Jack and EWO. Back when my dog partner V.J. was doing so well. In schooling dogs with me or someone else. V.J. had one that showed desire,but was getting the bad end of the deal in it's first schooling. When V.J. brought this same dog out for a second schooling lesson, later on.

If I or the someone else went to get and try another dog. V.J. would say no, go get that same dog that was used the last time. Usually the reply to V.J. was made, but that dog had the upper hand the whole time. Sure you do not want to try another dog.

His reply was no, less use the same schooling dog from the first get go. See what my dog has learned, will it show some counter move smarts or maybe kick your dog's arse. LOL. If not, no need to proceed farther. Just check my dog's oil on that dog. He felt a good dog that had potential would learn the proper counter moves before trying another style dog on it. If dog had improved, then later on try another style dog. But not to the point of schooling his dog one more time, then just one more time, and time and time again. Before one had the confidence to use their dog in a weight pull event.

Dogs that show some dog contact desire at around say 18 months old can get some short 5 minute schooling lessons. If dog shows potential, best to wait till 24 to 28 months old before a serious weight pull event is to take place.

A good dog will learn from each schooling bout, still the over all style it will predominately desire to do is in the genes. Jack's dogs are noted head dogs with smarts to go to the body when their opponent is weak. Bolio's Sire and Bolio were known for being the same bad head dog types. Eli bred dogs usually stay in the front end till they can go to the back end. JMHO, Cheers

[Officially Retired]

Ditto Jack and EWO. Back when my dog partner V.J. was doing so well. In schooling dogs with me or someone else. V.J. had one that showed desire,but was getting the bad end of the deal in it's first schooling. When V.J. brought this same dog out for a second schooling time later on.

If I or the someone else went to get and try another dog. V.J. would say no, go get that same dog that was used the last time. Usually the reply to V.J. was made, but that dog had the upper hand the whole time. Sure you do not want to try another dog.

His reply was no, less do the same schooling dog from the first get go. See what my dog has learned, will it show some counter move smarts or even kick your dog's arse. LOL. If not, no need to proceed farther. Just check it's oil on that dog. He felt a good dog that had potential would learn the proper counter moves before trying another style dog on it. If dog had improved, then later to another style dog. But not to the point of schooling, one more time, then just one more time, and time and time again. Before one had the confidence to use their dog in a weight pull event.

Dogs that show some dog contact desire at around say 18 months old can get some short 5 minute schooling lessons. If dog shows potential, best to wait till 24 to 28 months old before a serious weight pull event is to take place.

A good dog will learn from each schooling bout, still the over all style it will predominately desire to do is in the genes. Jack's dogs are noted head dogs with smarts to go to the body when their opponent is weak. Bolio's Sire and Bolio were known for being the same bad head dog types. Eli bred dogs usually stay in the front end till they can go to the back end. JMHO, Cheers


This is a great post, thank you.

Very interesting that VJ would re-roll the prospect with the same dog to see if there was improvement. Never thought about that, so you learn something new every day :)

I saw this once with my U-Nhan-Rha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=540) dog with Icon (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=3887). The first time I rolled them, Icon completely dominated U-Nhan-Rha, but Uey was always in it, just a step behind. The second time I put them together, it was much more even, with Icon getting weaker in the end (which he didn't the first time, even though he was slightly the smaller dog).

No dog ever put Uey behind, except Icon, and no dog ever put Icon behind, ever, except for brief stints of Uey's second roll with him.

At the end of the second, I could see Uey was the stronger dog ... but it was already 1:20 into it, OTC, as both had great air, and I saw all I needed to see to be able to rate them both as First Class dogs, with Uey showing vast improvement the second time around. Uey was a face dog that was used to decimating "driving dogs" by destroying their faces ... and didn't know how to handle a Pure Ear Dog the first time he faced Icon ... but he learned how to deal with it, the second time around, and actually rode and frustrated Icon at several points.

Very interesting to learn of VJ's methods :)

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

I think they all come into it with their own DNA tendencies.
I think they call CAN learn, but not all do.
Seen dogs change styles b/c of injury and losing situations.
Seen a lot of dogs that have NEVER gone to the head, take the head and this kind of dog taking to the head has typically found out he's just run into a mouth or a strength he's never faced before.

[EWO]

The dogs that change tendencies or styles in defense of what another is doing is usually a smart dog. The best of those smart dogs either make offensive damage out of a defensive position, or can switch from one to the other in a seamless fashion.

There is a ton of difference between the dog that is on the head to keep something off of him and a the dog that is on the head to control, punish and break one down to a finishing spot.

And then there are complete surprises. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=41359
If a dog were graded on everything from life on the chain, to work ethic, to being game, with ability, to finish, everything from 8 weeks old until the end of his performance career, this is the best male I have ever seen. He was a brutal head dog, a dog that killed from the side of the head. Hangers on the top of the ear and the bottom of the jaw and just pulled it all together to the jaw was useless. Before the thought of "I'm outta here" completely crossed the mind of his opponent he dropped to the throat and it was over. In his second he was going into a bad ass Tant/Burns RBJ dog who was freak dog in the ass end. I never saw Charlie hit one in the ass at all til that dog tried it. It was like, "that's the way you wanna play" and out of nowhere dropped down and pulled his wee-wee and cod sack out by the roots and from there back to the head and then to the throat. Either that dog had a propensity Charlie recognized or he heard us talking on the drive down, not really sure. LOL. Real smart. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Would have liked to have seen that dog in action :shocked:

[EWO]

He was a pleasure to see. He was campaigned by DTA kennels and I was lucky enough to be a part of the keeps and learning from him. The only drawback being he would spoil the best of them because he really had no faults that had to be worked thru. He accepted his role in life as a methodically driven serial killer. His only fault was maybe he was within a skipped feeding of peak condition at all times. He turned his 12 foot chain (3/8" log chain) into a jenny/catmill for hours everyday. Rake another dog, touch another dog, feed another dog and he was off to the races.

Posted this in another thread as well. Maybe it was one where Kitana bit you I think. We had just worked and fed Charlie and was about to put him up. We were in the building and the box was up. I dropped a box of screws and not thinking, got down on all fours to pick them up and looked up and he looked over. He had that slight raise in his body and was about to scratch. I can only imagine what would have happened if he was not on lead. I would like to think I would have held my own and been picked up game but who knows. More than likely screamed like a little girl. EWO

[bamaman]

I think Silver was a defensive head dog with no finish.ill use him as a example for legal purposes.Pera did add the Spike blood through Hammonds to add finish .Gr Ch kid is a example of what it looks like.Both styles can get you the W though.I have saw some head dogs that will finish in the head your offensive ones.And some move on to the rear.There was a time around here were you could get ear dogs for a little or no money and it was a ear dog with no finish.You might get a ear dog with finish at times but not likely, it depended on what the breeder liked.I got most of mine from a guy who liked leg breakers.

[SHOWBOX]

"Gr.Ch Titere is by far one of the smartest most complete dog there is, as has been stated it may not look impressive but it gets the job done".

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I think he looks very impressive. I remember seeing his rolls and watching the difference in his first show. He was barn storming in his rolls, offensive and though a show quality hound not the BULLDOG he is today. On show day, GATORBOYZ brought an intelligent head dog that kept Titere from touching him and at bay for about 15 minutes and then I could see the wheels start turning, Titere was THINKING.

That's when I KNEW he was something special. Once the wheels started turning it was over. He adapted his style to his opponent and the hound jumped the box in :34. He got better in every show after and is obviously one of the greatest of all time.

SHOWBOX

[ragedog10]

Agreed I should of went into more detail about what I meant, what I meant was to most it appears he is doing very little when in fact he is taking one apart piece by piece. # 1 is still running up highway lol

[S_B]

CH Charlie sounds like an ACE!

[Nitaino]

Well going to throw my two cents in the mix. I raised and schooled Gr Ch Titere. He was the only one out of the litter that wasn't single minded. He would use your style against you till he got his way and then it was just a matter of time. Remember you aren't out to impress but to get that win. And the stiffer the competition the harder it is to get your way. I do believe you can breed your animals to have a specific style. I have three generations of dogs on the ground off Panthro Jr. who was the best producer of that litter and all have smarts but are back end monsters. To really key on that specific trait you must have animals that pass the trait along on constantly and be fairly tightly bred.

[EWO]

I like this answer. Especially "Remember you aren't out to impress but to get that win".

I think this gets lost a lot. I know nothing of Titere and this by no means is a sign of disrespect but it amazes me people will question a dog's performance. And just using him as an example. If he won all the matches if less than :30 each, it will be some that will question the competition. If it took him 2 plus hours four or five times some will question his ability or desire to finish. And the part that always gets me is that if five-ten-fifteen years from now if Titere turns out not to be a producer (again no disrespect) the lack of production somehow will diminish his performance career.

For me what makes Titere special, and not knowing anything about him, is that he went in and came out a bunch of times, by any means necessary. The object is to get in and get out as quick as you can. The dog does not get to pick and choose his competition yet he is the one who is held accountable. And on top of that he has to have style points. And on top of that he has to go on to produce to sort of validate his performances.

Ch. Charlie was farmed from his breeder to DTA. Odds are he could have won a few more. He basically had no faults. After his first he didn't take a lot of damage. He positioned himself in a defensive manner yet delivered the wood. He had that style, and then when it needed to change it did, and after a rough first one he mauled three really good dogs. Dogs that had won and if they had not crossed his path, maybe win some more. The kicker is he has had only a few breedings and thus he is not a well known 4XW.

It is funny that as rough as the dogs are, and the owners as well, it can be a fickle bunch at the same time. EWO






Well going to throw my two cents in the mix. I raised and schooled Gr Ch Titere. He was the only one out of the litter that wasn't single minded. He would use your style against you till he got his way and then it was just a matter of time. Remember you aren't out to impress but to get that win. And the stiffer the competition the harder it is to get your way. I do believe you can breed your animals to have a specific style. I have three generations of dogs on the ground off Panthro Jr. who was the best producer of that litter and all have smarts but are back end monsters. To really key on that specific trait you must have animals that pass the trait along on constantly and be fairly tightly bred.

[ragedog10]

That's what me and my partner said about him doesn't have to impress but be effective and get the win 8x's. Most have no true concept on how to breed dog's, they breed papers instead of traits.

[Nitaino]

You have to know where they come from before you can set your path. So paper work is important in its own rite. You really couldn't expect a battle cross to produce consistently. If you have to breed sixty pups to get a winner there is your answer. You can't take things personally in these animals and become dog blind. Be true to yourself and your animals and you will get what you are looking for. Don't get me wrong he is the Man and his blood runs in my whole yard but figured a few things out and its working much better but just can't give that information out like that. Lol.

[HAMMER49]

You have to know where they come from before you can set your path. So paper work is important in its own rite. You really couldn't expect a battle cross to produce consistently. If you have to breed sixty pups to get a winner there is your answer. You can't take things personally in these animals and become dog blind. Be true to yourself and your animals and you will get what you are looking for. Don't get me wrong he is the Man and his blood runs in my whole yard but figured a few things out and its working much better but just can't give that information out like that. Lol.

Beautiful Statement you made there.
I made a breeding to him, and hopefully it comes together just like your "new" recipe does.

[Nitaino]

Beautiful Statement you made there.
I made a breeding to him, and hopefully it comes together just like your "new" recipe does.
Hope you have success with your breeding also. I have it pretty well figured out and will get a chance to prove it this up coming year when they are old enough to dance. Schooling has shown extremely talented and devastating animals. Now what is left is to bring it when it counts consistently.

[bossman311]

What do yall think of a dog who develops a style to keep dogs out of areas he or she doesn't want to get bit ? lets say a head dog for instance ,why does he go to the head ? is it because he doesn't want to get bit in the rear ? Now would you call this offensive or defensive style or both ? I have noticed on some of mine when you pet the head and work your way towards the rear the closer to the rear you get the more alert they become.Ok now say a rear end dog ,he goes for the rear because he doesn't want to get bit in the head ? So same question is it offensive or defensive or both ? And wonder how many folks got bit trying to pet the head of one of these ? just looking for some opinions.

Bloodline.
They learn more in hunting but breed like dogs & you'll get like dogs.

[EWO]

Bloodline.
They learn more in hunting but breed like dogs & you'll get like dogs.


This is true. Most of our dogs are true head and face dogs. CH. Charlie no different. In schooling he never had anything go into his rear end, or even try. He won his first and the camp went out and picked a bad ass RBJ dog for payback. He had RIP a couple being a killer rear end/gut fighter. Our thinking, and thinking out loud to one another, Charlie should be able to hold him out and even get him out. The man said release and Charlie scratched right into his ass, spun him north-south and took everything out of him in 10 minutes. He did not make it over at 40.

Charlie had never been bit in the ass nor had he ever bit one on the ass til that night. Either he heard us talking or he knew. Really weird.

Most dogs have a style. Schooling prepares them for other styles. They learn to defend themselves defensively or they learn to defend themselves offensively.

S

[bossman311]

This is true. Most of our dogs are true head and face dogs. CH. Charlie no different. In schooling he never had anything go into his rear end, or even try. He won his first and the camp went out and picked a bad ass RBJ dog for payback. He had RIP a couple being a killer rear end/gut fighter. Our thinking, and thinking out loud to one another, Charlie should be able to hold him out and even get him out. The man said release and Charlie scratched right into his ass, spun him north-south and took everything out of him in 10 minutes. He did not make it over at 40.

Charlie had never been bit in the ass nor had he ever bit one on the ass til that night. Either he heard us talking or he knew. Really weird.

Most dogs have a style. Schooling prepares them for other styles. They learn to defend themselves defensively or they learn to defend themselves offensively.

S

Yes Sir that's it!