the right weight

[scary]

Hey guy's this question has been asked before I'm sure. But any advice information tips anything would be very appreciated. How do you guys figure out their correct contest weight? I know it's not as simple as it seems and alot of the older dogmen just know but I'm not that fortune enough. There only a little bit of information out there or what I could find. And it seems kinda suspect. I really appreciate anything anymore has to offer. Thanks in advance. Scary

[CYJ]

Scary, Old timers or Young timers unless the dog is active and kept lean on the chain. One cannot generally guess the right pulling weight of a dog by just looking at it.

Once you have a dog properly schooled, and in good health. The dog should be put into a four week pre keep. Depending on the time of year and weather, being hot or cold. The dog is slowly worked down to where it is reasonably reduced but still has it full strength.

It is not a exact science, if you have a big boned deep game dog with average mouth etc. Best go in the hot weather, hoping someone brings a hard charging dog that pulls itself off it's feet. Runs hot and quits.

Not everyone believes the same. Usually a good hot weather dog will have four ribs showing and the tip of the hip bones showing, only if the dog is still strong. That is the bottom weight.

I would not recommend pulling a dog as tight as D. Mayfield pulled Tombstone. Only a expert seasoned dog man can pull that off. Note that was also done in the hot weather and in that Texas desert climate. Don Mayfield knew beyond a doubt that Tombstone was a deep game dog. Tombstone was also a big boned, tough hided, rugged type dog. Tombstone was like a Timex Watch, able to take a licking and keep on ticking. LOL

Bobby Hall and friends let Don sucker them into that event and I believe more than once at other times. The only other dog man known in his hey day, able to pull dogs that tight and keep their strength was Mr. Howard Teal. Mr. Teal and Don Mayfield were good friends in their hey days. When I had taken Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner to a major dog show years back. A few of those dog men called me to the side at the concessions, bought me a hot dog/coke etc. Talking real friendly, finally they got around to asking me how I thought Mr. Teal was pulling those dogs so tight and keeping them strong. Which I really did not know,and told them best just go ask Mr. Teal. LOL

A hard mouth, fast fighting all out charging dog, is best shown in the colder cooler weather. This type dog can be showed with more weight. Around three ribs showing and no hip bones showing. Providing the dog is strong and is working cool. Still want a big boned dog for the weight. You have to get that from the dogs you select and the brood pen.

To get it right over time, do a 4 week pre keep for the dog you plan to show. If you have the best weight figured out. If possible try to get your dog entered into the next weight pulling dog show. You just proceed right into the main keep of around 8 weeks. The next show is to far off, put the dog back on the chain or pen. Depending on the weather and activity of the dog. Can put back on up to three pounds to keep dog in good health.

By doing pre keeps on dogs you plan to have a last schooling look at. Do enough of these, you will learn how to properly condition and find the best pulling weight for your dogs. All the problems and things one needs to learn about making weight and conditioning a dog will usually crop up during those first four weeks of a dedicated work keep.

You try to glean the best information you can. Figure out according to your location and how much land you live on, the type climate you live in generally. That will probably dictate the best choice of equipment you can use.

One will learn best by just doing. I had lots of books with articles back then on feeding and conditioning keeps. I learned to glean out what worked for me. I had a very good dog conditioner as my dog partner. He helped me out a lot. But over time I found out I could not just do things his way 100%. I had to develop a system that worked for me and my time schedule. Plus the type dogs I had and were dealing with. Cheers

[EGK]

Agreed, every word CYJ said... If you're looking for a regimen of work. Just work your dog for 4 weeks and not your ego. You'll know the good days and bad days. All dogs are just not a like. Any keep you get is just a base keep. Not working the dog and watching it as an individual is the easiest way to hurt it in keep. I can't say it enough, work the dog not the keep.

[scary]

Thanks for taking the time to reply cyj

[EWO]

Great post CYJ.

Basically it is finding the lowest possible weight in which your dog will optimally perform. The 4 week plan mentioned is a good idea incorporating the very tools that will be used when it is a 'for real' situation. This is just using one of the tools but it would be the principle for all of them combined.

Just for numbers sake, the dog weighs 50lbs and can pull 25% of his bodyweight on a steady walk for 1 hour and he is beat, can't do anymore for that day. Cut his feed til he is 49. He pulls the 25% again for 1 hour and again he is beat for the day. Cut his feed til he is 48. Pull that 25% for 1 hour and he is beat at 1 hour. Cut him to 47 and at 55 minutes he is beat and can do no more that day. 47 is too light for him at this time. So 48 will be his ideal weight.

Several theories on 48 being his ideal weight. Refer to CYJ's post for adjusting based on the dog's style and maybe even the opponent's style.

At 48 he is perfect. I like to add a pound and call him at 49. I prefer to work the dog on pit weight and then feed him up every day the last half of the keep. On average a show lasts :45-:55 minutes. Some a lot shorter but the 2 plus hour deals are not the norm. If the dog is perfect at 48, called at 49, at the :50 minute mark he is just about on that perfect 48 mark at the end of the average gathering.

Some will work him at 49-50 and then draw him to 48 the last couple of weeks. It becomes a matter of personal preference, outside temperature, style, being kept inside or outside, type of work, type of worker.

The dogs have an optimal weight and that is always a singular number. It is 48, not 48 or 49. Some of the true athletes can have a window of a pound or so either way. Some perform in spite of the weight called and some (a lot) succumb due to the chosen weight.

It's an art. It takes time and experience. Just dialing in on a weight is rather easy, dialing in on the correct weight is the most important part of the show. EWO

[EWO]

The weight cut should be done over time. Starving a dog to a weight will give a false measurement of strength and conditioning. A cut in feed will do it but the work will do it as well.

The hour is not a hard number. As the dog is worked and fed he will get stronger and better conditioned. He will be able to do more as the work continues so the idea is to dial him in with work and food rather than crash him down and call him out.

Lots of time and effort involved. The first one will be really hard and one will really second guess himself all the way through. The next one will get a little easier as one will correct his mistakes and make adjustments. The more and more times it is completed a person will start to get desired effects and notice them along the way. In time your mind will process he is here, after we do this and that he will be there, so I can call him at XXX. At that point, that is the "EYE" mentioned in the first post. EWO

[CYJ]

Hello Scary, when reading about topics like dog conditioning. Always look for those little bits or pearls of good advice from these notable dog men like EWO/James Crenshaw and many others. One reason, it is just impossible to put into total detail on paper, all the things that may be done in a keep.

There is no exact, one way to do this sort of event, due to so many variables. That is where one has to plan ahead, be prepared. Have the Cart set up right and filled with all the necessities before hooking up the horse. Do pre keeps to learn more about how to overcome Murphy's Laws of probabilities. LOL

Note that pearl of good advise EWO Throwed out there. Setting the show weight a pound over the dog's best lowest show weight. This allows a dog not to be overcome by dehydration. If a dog's weight pulling show goes a long time. Helps a dog to maintain it's strength, from going into shock and recover faster after the show. More dogs have been lost from sever dehydration than about anything else. Every time a dog goes through a hard event along with severe dehydration. Is liken to over stretching a rubber band to many times.

In the conditioning section on this site, probably where this topic should be as well. Note the topic on Correct weight and read the J. Crenshaw keep, entered by Yig Yang. Note some good pearls of advice in that keep.
(1) Arrive thirty hours before show time. This allows one enough time to adjust the last feeding and amount of fluids needed to point and keep dog on it's show weight.
(2) Using no solids but a good strong chicken broth. That if extra is needed, can be given up to three hours before show time.
(3)James allowed one hour before feeding a dog after a hard workout. Now time in the cool down walk and rub down time can be included in that hour of time before feeding. Needs to be factored as well in the total time from feeding time to feeding time. So one can adjust out the correct feeding times and amounts on those last three rest days. Counting time backwards from the weigh in time. This is done the last week based on the dog's main P.M. workout and feeding time after all the work/cool down/rub down and then fed.

I got some good info from a old pre keep program that was written by Maurice Carver in the SDJ, one tid bit was feeding a 28 to 30 hours out on those rest days counting backwards from that weigh in time, before a show. Based on that last hard work day and fourth and last major feeding before going into those last three day rest day feeding cycles. Now today with some dog men using 100% raw diets that feeding cycle on those last three rest days could vary. Most dog men stay around 26/28/30 hours on that last feeding before weigh in.

After reading how D. Mayfield solved the inherit problems of the Jenny by taking the arm out to forty feet and using a extra wide dog collar on the dog in stead of a harness. Preparing and keeping a soft running track for the dog to run on etc.

I liked what the Round Table had to offer versus a tread mill. Being a excellent back up to the Jenny when bad weather and rain makes a Jenny unusable. So I looked at the problems with it. Some negative factors were round tables being made to small, with to much up and down bounce. These type tables can injure a dogs shoulders/various joints and foot pads. Tables not padded properly or padded to thick,wrong type material for the dog to run on. If Built to high off the ground, most dogs will run tense and afraid of falling off the edge. Best around knee high off the ground. The overhead pulling beam not set at the right section over the table.

Once I over came those problems, took it out to 16 feet and wanted to go 20 foot total across length. Was no harder are cost wise to do, I did not have a wide enough building to allow a safe working space to the side. My building was a 30 foot long by 20 foot wide. On these extra large round tables you need at least four feet of a safe working space.

Once I did, I had another cat's meow piece of training equipment that allowed the dog to stretch out, lope and jog trot very similar to the Swing Jenny. Plus a bulldog even down to puppies love these big tables like a guinea pig loves it's squirrelly cage. LOL I found were a dog would not work a Jenny or Treadmill, will work a table like they have been running one for years. Go figure

A well written article on how to best use one of these type of Round Table mills. I found in a old 1950's Blood lines Journal. Maybe written by Frank Fitzwater. Back in those days many of the now deceased old timers wrote various articles on their thoughts of conditioning and types of work equipment. How much time on the average, would give the over all best conditioning to a dog. These articles were posted in those older Bloodlines journals.

There are two pieces of good advice in a article in the SDJ written by D. Mayfield from George Saddler and Earl Tudor. George Saddler believed in working a dog the same amount of time for three days before increasing the work. He was a strong advocate on hand walking like J. Crenshaw. Earl Tudor stressed some rest days in a keep.

Even though worm medications have improved, I liked the information given by D. Mayfield in one of those SDJ articles on worming a dog during a keep. Using his time schedule and the newer meds found in Ca. Jack's Pit Bull Bible section should work today. Cheers

[EWO]

Great post. Always spot on. EWO

[Officially Retired]

That was a great post.

I used to have a lot of trouble picking the weight myself. Truman came in 3 lb light, Mac came in a 1 lb light, and Poncho came in 1.5 lb light (and 3 lb under his best weight).

People always give me shit for "losing more than I won," but that was back in 1990, 1994, and 1995, respectively.

I've learned quite a bit since then :lol:

Honestly, though, I never had a conditioning mentor during the early stages of my dogmanship. The people I got associated with early (Faron, Patrick, Hollingsworth) were all breeders, who really didn't know shit about conditioning, calling weights, etc. Consequently, I really didn't know shit about these things either ... and for a long time.

But what I did learn how to do was breed high-percentage dogs :D

Over time, of course, I eventually met some really good conditioners and (after I quit my job in 1999 to breed dogs exclusively) ... at which point I quickly went from 5-10 dogs to 30-65 dogs ... and was rolling-out a gazillion dogs constantly ... and part of what I did was experiment with their weights.

Another key thing that happened over the course of the years was my meeting "The Old Man" who was part of The A-Team, and even though he wasn't much of a conditioner, what that mofo knew how to do (as good or better as anyone I have ever seen) was call the right weight :idea:

This dude had been doing dogs since the mid-60s, had faced pretty much anybody who was anybody in dogs (Mayfield, Hall, Burton, Indian Sonny, Tant, Hargrove, Meaddors, Murphy, Strothers, Crenshaw, Rebel, etc.), you name them he faced them. And beat most of them. Believe this or not, most of the time he did NOT even condition the dogs he used when facing people at this level of the game :shocked:

He would just chain his dogs on a 15-20' heavy chain, on the side of the hill, up near the front door of his place ... and the dogs would get excited and constantly run that huge, long chain uphill/downhill throughout the day. Then he would pay a walker (his nephew) to walk the dog in the evening for several miles. And that's it. His "keep food" was Diamond Green bag, plus liver, plus a can of Veg-All vegetables :lol:

Don't laugh, because he beat some of the best dogmen, and dogs, in the game :-t

In fact, he used to say he would PAY someone to use a treadmill against him ... and he would PAY for their steroids too :-?

He said no way in hell was a part-time, mill-run dog, bulked-up on steroids, going to have a snowball's chance in hell of beating HIS dog ... that was conditioning itself all day, every damned moment of his life, drawn down to a MASSIVE weight for its size.

His dogs were drawn down to "all rawhide and sinew" and were always HUGE compared to his opponents ... and (for the most part) he won over some "top conditioners" ... primarily because (1) he knew what a bulldog was and (2) he really did know how to call a "best possible weight" on his animals.

The guy wasn't a "part-time dogman" either ... showing "1 dog a year" like a lot of guys (:lol:) ... No, this guy had 3 yards of dogs, paid people to do what I just described, and pretty much had a match going (sometimes) every weekend, but at least once a month, for the 5 years I rented one of his properties. And he'd been doing this for about as long as I have been alive.

I learned a lot about calling a dog's weight just by hanging out with him, and speculating alongside him about "What do you think his best weight's goin' to be?" ... on a lot of his dogs over the course of 5 years.

Wish I would have known all that I learned ... back when I started :twisted:

Jack

[EWO]

Me and Mr. Crenshaw in the same sentence is a stretch, I mean a real stretch.


My first experiences were all about matching dogs. The guy that helped me the most would never be considered a breeder, and the kicker is it was by design, he simply didn't see the point in the time and effort it took dealing with brood dogs and/or puppies. It was all about winning matches. In turn, that is how I thought the bulldog world went 'round. Missed out on a lot of stuff and a lot of dogs that would have/should have/could have been big contributors didn't make it to the show. But back then it was all about the show. EWO

[DUKE_CITY]

I pick my proper weight in school i dont wait until the real hog hunt to guees.

I use the 3 second skin count to determine if I'm not carrying extra water weight.

I'll prekeep the dog until I get the 3 count. ( after the last schooling the dog will never be hog fat again) i got a good eye when it comes to picking a weight so the skin count tells me the dog is dry and around its pitt weight. Once I feel comfortable where the weight is I'll check the skin count. If i dont get the 3 count at the end of the pre keep I know im still holding water under the skin. from that point I'll shoot 2 cc of dex just to see how I fall on the scale. this will determine the amount of dex I'll use at the end of the keep to make weight. (dry rf1 does a great job of drying your dog out so be careful of the dex and rf1 combined)

I'll bulk the dog back up to about 3 or 4 lbs above the pitt weight and call my weight. (from this point this animal is a athlete and will be supervised everyday all day) it will be put on the scale twice a day and constantly I'll check the 3 count on the skin. You shouldn't be dry at this point.

(1st shot) 2 cc at the beginning of the keep for two reasons. i want to see how the dog weight takes to the dex and i want my dog to be used to working with the dex in its system.


(2nd shot) half way threw the keep I'll shoot the dex again to see how it falls. so if i need to adjust the dex i will after i see how it takes half way threw the keep. (im preparing to fall on weight and I'm still working the dog with dex in its system)

now the last seven days of the keep is tricky. i use the stuff ozzie stevans taught me. about 24 to 48 hours out I'll start my dex. I'll shoot the dex and make weight before the last feed. if im on weight then ozzie taught me how to maintain my weight. if im still over i might shoot 1 more cc of dex or cut the hard dog food completely out and just use brown rice and calfs liver to boost the red blood cells and 2 scoops of rf1. if im under I'll increase the hard dog food. if im on I'll feed my regular way.


so for the keep i shoot dex 3 times and i made sure in the pre keep i got the 3 count on the skin to find proper weight.

if you don't dry your dog out properly i will always be the bigger dog. because im really 2 or 3 pounds heavier with muscle and not water because the dex dried it out. If you not getting a 3 count then you have picked the wrong weight. if you are getting more then a 3 count then you're over dry and should fix it asap. if you are less then 3 days out then cancel.


the dex will keep you from swelling and have you the bigger dog because the dex only knocked the water weight off and not the muscle. alot of guys sit with their dog at its pitt weight for several days or even a couple weeks. the dog will get stale and just won't have the flavor you seen in school.

boxers only touch their pitt weight for for less then 24 hours so make sure your dog only touch his weight for that time.


jack i want you to tell me what you think. i love dex and lost when i dint use it but im undefeated when i use it that way

[FrostyPaws]

I'm not a big proponent of dex like I once was many years ago. I also don't think a 3 count on the dog's skin is optimal for the dog as that's basically dehydrated, bigger dog or not. I've usually always had the bigger dog, and it didn't require having a 3 count on the dog to do so. I certainly don't think dex hurts anything when used as you described. I do believe that giving your dog dex at different points of the keep is a good idea. That way you see if it has any effect on the dog in a negative fashion. The same can be said simply by giving him some dex and then looking at said dog.

I also agree on looking at the dog at close to what I think the dog's optimum weight should be. After doing that, I decide what to do weight wise. I don't bulk the dog back up 3 or 4 lbs above pit weight as that's simply extra weight for no real reason.

I don't use any hard dog food in keep whatsoever. I don't use any RF1 any longer either, though I do think it's a good thing to use if someone wants supplementation in their diet. If you lost when you didn't use dex, it had nothing to do with the dex.

[EWO]

I don't use dex in the keep or at the end of the keep. I use a lot of water in the feed pan. I maintain the dog at a pound or so over pit weight the first half of the keep and the last three weeks or so on weight when I start work. Like posted before I would not want a dog's show weight to be a weight he has never performed at, or never been allowed to work thru.

I disagree with the boxing analogy. Boxers do not perform at their 'fight weight' and dogs do. The reason they do not perform at that low weight is because they simply can't. Boxers and MMA fighters cut weight to get into a lower weight class. It has nothing to with being at an optimal performing weight. I will agree they can't stay there because it is indeed unhealthy, but cutting to a weight has nothing to do with performance, only making a lower weight class. People then rehydrate to a better weight, and in most cases a healthier weight, and in all cases a weight they can perform better at. Dogs do not have that option. They are pulled to a weight, right or wrong, and the they compete at that weight. For dogs the weight is a million more times important than people. People can fix some things with hydration as where a dog is not allowed that safety net.

With that said, I know a bunch of people who use dex with success. Some that are all against it. That is what makes the dog game competitive. If every one did all the things the same we would all have the same dogs in the same shape and every Saturday night the dogs would fight to a draw. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Duke City,

I apologize for missing this question. (I did not intentionally ignore it.)

My own beliefs are as follows:

Everyone whoever gambles or risks stakes is "superstitious" in some kinda way.

That's just the nature of anyone's mindset when it comes to games of "chance."

There will always be some part "skill," some part "luck," and some part "chance" (or styles, etc.).

I do not believe in a 3-count whatsoever.
I believe in a 0.5-1.0 count, that's it.

Anymore than that is a dehydrated dog IMO, and a dehydrated dog is never in its best possible condition.

I believe the following is one of the most important statements that anyone can read:

Just because a person "does something," and is successful, does NOT mean "what they did" was the cause of that success :idea:

SO MANY TIMES a dog wins in spite of what his owner does, NOT "because of" what he did :idea:

With that said, I don't think a single dog on the face of this earth ever won "because of" the fact his owner used dex on him.

I absolutely DO believe many dogs have LOST because of the amateurish, improper use of dex.

In the end, I personally believe that a "best, lowest weight" can (and should) be achieved without the use of dex.

Jack

[bulldoghistorian]

dont understand the need for dex neither the 3 count , i bring em wet and they are still bigger most of the time
since I started with raw and mashed veggies back in 99 it really opened my eyes

I think there is a couple of things that are essential in getting the weight right

1) know your line
2) know the style
3) know your food

[Doc Ellis]

Frosty- are you still giving DEX a couple days prior to show day? If not, what made you change?

[FrostyPaws]

No Doc. I haven't done that in quite some time. The change was brought about simply because I was cutting out things that were excessive and not needed basically.

[DUKE_CITY]

we use Pedialyte to counter the dehydration. the last 7 days of the keep we use 1oz of pedialyte for every pound of body weight. a 40lb will get 40oz of pedialyte in every feeding during the last week.

without the pedialyte this use of the dex isn't possble. the pedialyte is just like using a v.i. during the last week.


thanks for the feed back and stay safe guys.

[FrostyPaws]

we use Pedialyte to counter the dehydration. the last 7 days of the keep we use 1oz of pedialyte for every pound of body weight. a 40lb will get 40oz of pedialyte in every feeding during the last week.

without the pedialyte this use of the dex isn't possble. the pedialyte is just like using a v.i. during the last week.


thanks for the feed back and stay safe guys.

Duke, you can hyperhydrate a dog throughout the entire keep, and towards the end, simply remove the excess fluid, and the dog will shed the excess weight without any issues. Dex, nor anything else, is needed. Pedialyte is used for electrolyte replacement, along with rehydration. Dogs don't lose electrolytes like we do, so that's just something else excessive that's not needed. If the dog was hyperhydrated throughout your keep, even at the end, there's no need to worry about deyhdration.

And no matter what we think about pedialyte, etc, NOTHING is just like using an IV except an IV. IV is basically assimilated when it hits the vein. That can't be said for anything that has to be drank or eaten.

[DUKE_CITY]

we do hydrate threw the whole keep. we use 1oz of water for every pound of body weight. the last week the water gets substituted with pedialyte.

with the use of rf1, oils, raw feed and Pedialyte our dogs are ready to be dried out.

the dex not only dries us out properly but it is a anti-inflammatory. so our lips are like leather. (less fang calls) and our head & nose won't swell do to the pig trying to pull us out. my biggest fear is a good nose hog. I breed for great mouth so keeping the swelling down around the nose and the eyes are big concerns. dex makes me sleep easy the night before. lol

being so dry and not swelled it makes it so much easier to find a vein during the aftercare.

the good with Dex outweighs the bad.

[FrostyPaws]

we do hydrate threw the whole keep. we use 1oz of water for every pound of body weight. the last week the water gets substituted with pedialyte.

with the use of rf1, oils, raw feed and Pedialyte our dogs are ready to be dried out.

the dex not only dries us out properly but it is a anti-inflammatory. so our lips are like leather. (less fang calls) and our head & nose won't swell do to the pig trying to pull us out. my biggest fear is a good nose hog. I breed for great mouth so keeping the swelling down around the nose and the eyes are big concerns. dex makes me sleep easy the night before. lol

being so dry and not swelled it makes it so much easier to find a vein during the aftercare.

the good with Dex outweighs the bad.

If you're using the 1oz per pound method, you don't need pedialyte at all. You're simply adding something else basically for the sake of adding it.

You can strip off extra water by simply reducing the amount of water the dog gets. The dog's body will rid itself of the excess water and be how it needs to be.

You won't have fang calls unless you have something hanging around your mouth. It doesn't matter if you use dex or not in that case. Same can be said for a quality head/nose dog. No amount of dex is going to help with the damage those kinds of animals can inflict.

Being dry actually hinders IV access due to veins collapsing, rolling, etc due to not enough fluid volume. Not only that, but being dry also hurts the dog's body throughout it's performance, and if you go a long time, you stand a much greater chance of passing than otherwise.

NOW, all of my ideas/knowledge are strictly based on my idea of dry dogs and working in the medical field on people.

[EWO]

It is funny how things change. When I first started dex was an absolute. We used it both for the effects of an inflammatory but also used it as a means for drying the dog / de-watering if you will. In time I felt like the dog will de-water himself if he is healthy, plus the amount of water is metered/measured.

When I first got away from dex I used the ounce per pound method of hydration. It seemed like it was border line 'not enough' in the earlier stages of work. I used the ounce per pound method but left water available throughout the early stages. They used that water as well.

Four or five weeks in on the ounce per pound method the dog comes off that bowl and seldom touches it. At that point it is removed and the ounce per pound method dials the dog in without the use of dex, or any other diuretic. He will then piss himself to a good water content.

I think the issue is more so when water is used to dial in on an exact weight. It is like he is a half pound over lets force him to piss a couple of times to make weight. This will lead to a dry dog. And it is funny how the dollars help make that decision, I'm going to piss him to weight so I don't have to pay the forfeit, but I wouldn't water him up to get a half pound more.

Sort of rambling. EWO

[mitchm]

EWO, there's no rambling on your part, just great information, may be too much for someone new like myself. There's so much information out there that it sometimes worries me what I will do or not do when the time comes to put a dog through keep for my first time. I seem to be more worried about how I will feed, supplementation, hydration, drugs and arriving on weight much more than how to and how much to work a dog, that seems like the easy part.

If you could give advice to someone doing their first keep, what would it be?

[gotap_d]

If i had to give the advice it would be to tag along and help out with an experienced conditioner who is doing a keep. If that option is not available the next best thing would be to do your own keep for an adba show just as a trial run and see if you can make weight or how the dog takes to it. Basically just practice foing it.

[Nut]

Ill give you one advise. Don't use/try any steroids or doping. (dont know if thats what u mean with "drugs") It doens't only fuck up rather than help 80% of the people who are experimenting with it. Keeps u from telling how ur base keep works as well. Hydration method that Frosty mentions works fine. 1 oz per lb. and cut it back to normal the last days.

[mitchm]

If i had to give the advice it would be to tag along and help out with an experienced conditioner who is doing a keep. If that option is not available the next best thing would be to do your own keep for an adba show just as a trial run and see if you can make weight or how the dog takes to it. Basically just practice foing it.

That would be ideal but unfortunately I'm a bit out of the way. I do have friends to help out but essentially it'll be me on my own. Thanks

[mitchm]

Ill give you one advise. Don't use/try any steroids or doping. (dont know if thats what u mean with "drugs") It doens't only fuck up rather than help 80% of the people who are experimenting with it. Keeps u from telling how ur base keep works as well. Hydration method that Frosty mentions works fine. 1 oz per lb. and cut it back to normal the last days.

That's what I was referring to and I never truly would use steroids but it had crossed my mind since it's a topic of debate amongst the more experienced. Thanks for your input!

[EWO]

This is a pretty good place for information. LOL Lots of articles and lots of knowledgeable people to learn from.

Just a few freebies...Go to the raw feeding articles. There is an economy version and then there are some premium plans. The economy version is actually a pretty good base line for a keep. Just about everything is there. A couple of adjustments to the economy plan and some supplementation help and the feed bowl is real close, most definitely in the ball park.

The steroids are another story altogether. Nut said 80% but I would go to the mid 90's, even higher. Most people who use steroids on the dogs apply them with humans in mind, especially dosing. If bodybuilding.com says 400mg per week they are talking about a 200lb. man not a 40lb dog. So many fail to grasp that calculation to mg/lb of bodyweight. Some do not understand the need to increase work and still ensure rest. Just because the dog recovers in an amazing fashion does not mean rest becomes a non-factor. It is not an easy fix, and it does not hide not understanding how to work a dog, it actually exposes the conditioners inabilities.

The hardest thing to do is pick an ideal weight. Lots of posts on here covering this subject. Basically it is the dog at his strongest at his lowest weight. If a dog weighs 50lbs and can do a task then drop him to 49. If he can do the task t 49 go to 48. Continue to drop til he can't do the task, then go up til he can accomplish the task. That is his weight, and for the new guys, add 1 from there. Better to miss one over than to miss one under.

The equipment boils down to what the dog will use. The most glamorous slat mill with all the bells and whistles is a big pile of shit if the dog will not run it. The $10 flirt pole is the best thing since individually wrapped cheese if the dog works it all out. If a person has a secluded area and the dog will chase a ball all out and play fetch, screw the equipment, you can make it without it.

Equipment is mostly preference. Teach the dog to work it at a young age and the equipment is worth its weight in gold. All of them work when used correctly, and all of them are detrimental to the dog when used incorrectly.

Again, sorry for babbling. But post your questions in the appropriate sections and the information is plentiful. EWO

[mitchm]

Yes, this site has a wealth of real knowledge and real information. To often I don't ask the questions that I would like to for fear of getting jumped on. If everything goes as planned for my male he will be a pleasure to condition, he loves to work and use all the tools. I'll stay in proper sections from now on. Thanks

[EWO]

Never worry about being jumped on, for one it is really good board. For two, screw 'em, it is the internet. Hard to get a black eye from the keyboard. LOL

The sections help keep things separated but like all great conversation, the great posts/exchanges gravitate all over the place. Some one will ask about a slat mill, which will gravitate to a carpet mill, to a winning dog who was hand walked only, to whether to breed to the dog that won or to the dog that made the dog who won, to why the producing dog was fed half raw/half kibble, to what pair of shoes to wear when working the dogs, all the way to whether you believe scientology is a load of crap or not.

What I like best about this board is that with all the other boards a good series of posts, for whatever reasons, end up with someone's Mom wearing combat boots, a series of name calling, then calling one another out knowing full well that 'computer combat' seldom leads to real combat.

It is a good board. Fire away. Take advantage of what is floating around in this arena. EWO

[EWO]

Again, sorry for babbling. But post your questions in the appropriate sections and the information is plentiful. EWO

was not meant to direct your posts, as if you were doing something wrong, but much more so to direct you to the right spot for a quicker and more accurate response.

When I re-read it the last line sounded more like I was giving a directive rather than offering some help. EWO