$200 PUPS = GOOD "WORKING MAN" PRICE ... OR A DISGRACE TO THE BREED???

[Officially Retired]

I would like to hear a poll of opinions.

I see people post their $200 puppies, and personally it makes me sick. One guy was selling pups for $75!

Really? That's all you think of your pups? Of your bloodline? Of your own assessment and selection process ... that any broke-dick should be able to get them?

Or do I have it wrong?

I would like to hear HONEST opinions ... if you REALLY know how to produce good dogs, I mean seriously good dogs, and you were going to sell them ... what would your price be?

Feedback please ...

[BSK]

$500 minimum. Right now the Breedings I'm doing will Be $800 -$1K. I feel if they can't afford to buy them they can't afford to properly take care of them & for sure will never use them. The $100-$200 dogmen are the guys bringing shame to the real sportsmen of the Breed. They can't afford proper chains,hardware,meds & supplements, etc. They are truly disgraces to the Breed & sport.

[Jackattack8413]

There are plenty of scumbags out there with more money then good sense, people who don't put in honest work for their money yet watch it come in hand over fist. These people don't have a true appreciation of the value of a dollar and aren't willing to get off their ass and scoop shit. There are also many honest people with families that bust their ass 40+ hours a week to provide for their household and their charges that may not have the extra 1000 it would take to bring a new one to the yard. My point is if you are selling to the general public the price tag you put on the pup will not be the deciding factor in the quality of hands it lands in. When I do a breeding I will do it because I honestly feel I am doing my best to improve the quality of the line of dogs I'm breeding and at the end of the day I will give pups to people I feel have the dogs and breeds best interest in mind before I will put a $800-$1000 dollar price tag to the highest bidder just because I think man with a larger bankroll will be the better provider for my hard work. If you are selling to the general public the price you put on your pups is merely your own desire for personal gain not a reflection of your concern for where your pup ends up. Just my two cents.

[Jackattack8413]

My ability to consistently produce "good" dogs still remains to be seen so my opinion may not be valid here

[Officially Retired]

Vote!

[Officially Retired]

Couple things:

Just because you have a decent price on your pups doesn't mean you'll sell them to "the highest bidder."
You can say NO to any customer who sounds like a dumbass.
Just because someone busts his ass for 40 hours a week doesn't entitle them to my dogs.

I bust my ass about 70 hours a week ... does that mean I can help myself to what you have?

The two have nothing to do with each other.

My prices are based on 1) my knowledge of what I am doing; 2) the % record of success I've laid down previously, for a lot of years; 3) the % turnout I expect; 4) and the amount of regular-priced pups a man would have to buy to get one as good as what I am breeding.

If a guy sells his pups for $500 that is an average price for a nothing-bred dog, from a guy who never bred a winner. That is just MHO.

I personally believe that any well-bred pup, from a guy who's winning with what he breeds/sells, ought to be $800 minimum ... with some truly selective-bred pups being worth $1500 - priceless.

I guess my point is, you only get to where you aim ... so why not set your sights high?

Jack

[Jackattack8413]

I'm still at a point where I don't need/want to sell at all I just want to keep cull and be honest with myself and my dogs. Wasn't a shot at you or anyone who sales dogs just my thoughts as a novice.

[gotap_d]

What does working man consist of. This sport draws people from all walks of life and all professions. From professional athletes, lawyers, doctors, teachers, garbage men all the way to old timers living on a social security check or some other sort of fixed income. Its up to the seller to put a value on the pups he had produced from his program if someone can afford the pup and like it so be it. If someone cant afford it then keep it moving. I have never sold a pup to anyone. Anything I breed I keep or send to kennel partners which is just an extension of myself. As far as buying a pup for anything over 500$ I will never do it as long as people are selling prospects from 500-1500$. Jmo.

[Nut]

im not a breeder, but when i breed i rather give a pup to a friend/good dogman for free then that i would collect 5000 from a stranger. Not that someone will pay that, but to make the statement. Last litter i agreed 2 pups for studservice. Gave them 4 because i had 8, because i know they will be in good hands.

if ur asking less then 800 for any taker, imo u dont respect ur dogs or yourself. 200 is ridiculous.

[EWO]

I'm a working man as well. I am not sure what it means but it has been/is used as a marketing tool to hopefully lower the price of something being bought or lure someone in to something being sold. I doubt there is an accurate/all covering definition of 'working man' in regards to the buying and selling of dogs.

So far the poll shows 100% toward the NO side of the opinion, until I just voted YES.

My YES vote really has nothing to do with the dogs involved, their quality, their price or the efforts that went into their arrival. The buyer always dictates the 'value' of anything purchased. It is basic economics. If I want $1000 for my puppy and no one is willing to pay that amount then what I think or want really does not matter. If I put a $1000 on him to avoid 'newspaper' shoppers their are plenty of shit heads with $1000. If I put $300 on him to 'get him in the right hands', again plenty of shit heads have $300.

I understand the intent of the poll, and if I did not have a degree in economics, and did not see a price change of $0.03 having millions of dollars of effect to the bottom line each quarter, and seeing where in the fiercest of price negotiations, what a person/company is willing to pay ends up being the 'ultimate factor'...I would vote NO as well.

The economy can stipulate a price but economics dictate its value. A person could start selling puppies for $300 and in each sequential litter go up $100. Regardless of his successes as a breeder, the eventual successes of the dog or the 'subjective value' of their relationship, in time the price will not be met and that is the value of the puppy.

I factor in if that is the puppy I want. Is it coming from what I want? Is there a really good chance it will take me where I want to go? If it is three answers of YES, then I pay the amount that is being asked. If it is $500 or $1500, for me, does not factor, it is the three questions above. EWO

[gotap_d]

Good post EWO.

[Officially Retired]

What does working man consist of. This sport draws people from all walks of life and all professions. From professional athletes, lawyers, doctors, teachers, garbage men all the way to old timers living on a social security check or some other sort of fixed income. Its up to the seller to put a value on the pups he had produced from his program if someone can afford the pup and like it so be it. If someone cant afford it then keep it moving. I have never sold a pup to anyone. Anything I breed I keep or send to kennel partners which is just an extension of myself. As far as buying a pup for anything over 500$ I will never do it as long as people are selling prospects from 500-1500$. Jmo.

Some "prospects" are more likely to go places than others ... and some prospects are worth/sold for a lot more than $1500.

Further, the ability to "win a match" is child's play compared to the ability to produce match dogs, especially at a top level :idea:

In other words, you can take the "golden egg" to market, but the price for the egg isn't anywhere near the price someone would pay for the goose that can lay them :idea:

People who buy dogs intelligently aren't looking to buy a mere match dog; they're looking to set themselves up to produce ELITE-LEVEL match dogs forever ... which they will be able to do if they make the right choices ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

im not a breeder, but when i breed i rather give a pup to a friend/good dogman for free then that i would collect 5000 from a stranger. Not that someone will pay that, but to make the statement. Last litter i agreed 2 pups for studservice. Gave them 4 because i had 8, because i know they will be in good hands.

That is perhaps the best way Nut.




if ur asking less then 800 for any taker, imo u dont respect ur dogs or yourself. 200 is ridiculous.

Agreed.

[Officially Retired]

I'm a working man as well. I am not sure what it means but it has been/is used as a marketing tool to hopefully lower the price of something being bought or lure someone in to something being sold. I doubt there is an accurate/all covering definition of 'working man' in regards to the buying and selling of dogs.

Agreed.

As Gotap said, some "working men" make a boatload more than other working men.

Wealth does not make someone a good dogman, but poverty does not make a buyer attractive.




So far the poll shows 100% toward the NO side of the opinion, until I just voted YES.

There is no Yes vote yet ...




My YES vote really has nothing to do with the dogs involved, their quality, their price or the efforts that went into their arrival. The buyer always dictates the 'value' of anything purchased. It is basic economics. If I want $1000 for my puppy and no one is willing to pay that amount then what I think or want really does not matter. If I put a $1000 on him to avoid 'newspaper' shoppers their are plenty of shit heads with $1000. If I put $300 on him to 'get him in the right hands', again plenty of shit heads have $300.

I disagree. The seller dictates the price. No one is going to tell me what to sell my pups for.

The buyer merely will agree to pay the price or not.

Truly good breeders are a scarce commodity, and there will always be buyers who will pay what a truly good breeder is asking.

Now, if somebody is a nobody he may have trouble selling his stock, but no breeder of consistent winners is going to have much trouble selling ...

Economically-speaking, the amount of time, effort, and cost has to be factored into the process of breeding/feeding/raising pups ... plus one's years of experience in making mistakes, getting it right, and then maintaining a successful line ... ALL have to be taken into account to properly-assess the worth of a set of pups.

If Joe Schmoe bought two ill-bred dogs from his local redneck friend, which are a mix of a buncha different lines, and neither one of these bozos ever bred a winner, and there isn't a breeding pattern established for there to be a reasonable expectation of producing ability ... then there is no one in their right minds that is going to buy that crap. Price SHOULD have to do with a realistic expectation of getting a world class dog or of being able to reliably and consistently produce world class dogs.

Because if you are buying a linebred animal, from a breeder who reliably and consistently puts people in the winner's circle, you absolutely should be willing to pay that breeder 3-5x as much for a pup like "that" than a pup from the other guy.




I understand the intent of the poll, and if I did not have a degree in economics, and did not see a price change of $0.03 having millions of dollars of effect to the bottom line each quarter, and seeing where in the fiercest of price negotiations, what a person/company is willing to pay ends up being the 'ultimate factor'...I would vote NO as well.

Well, you must not have actually voted, because no one has voted yes yet.




The economy can stipulate a price but economics dictate its value. A person could start selling puppies for $300 and in each sequential litter go up $100. Regardless of his successes as a breeder, the eventual successes of the dog or the 'subjective value' of their relationship, in time the price will not be met and that is the value of the puppy.

The trouble with your theory EWO is it is not factoring in SKILL as a breeder :idea:

Price doesn't determine worth, perceived value determines worth.

Nobody running mix-bred mongrels, and never having bred a winner, is going to have built-up perceived value in what they're selling ... whereas a guy who has produced exceptionally-game, consistently-winning stock, year-after-year *is* going to have the perceived value of his stock be 2-5x more valuable than the average palooka.

Sure, if you keep going up, maybe no one would pay $5,000 for a pup, but many people will pay a topshelf breeder $1000-$2000 for a pup (2x-4x the "average price" from a nobody).

As well they should. The top breeder's pups are at least that much more likely to make a positive impact on someone's program.




I factor in if that is the puppy I want. Is it coming from what I want? Is there a really good chance it will take me where I want to go? If it is three answers of YES, then I pay the amount that is being asked. If it is $500 or $1500, for me, does not factor, it is the three questions above. EWO

And that right there is the bottom line: perceived value.

And perceived value basically has to do with YOUR CALCULATED ODDS of getting what you really want in a dog ... and, if you're really thinking, its long-term ability to produce what you want in your program.

Jack

[S_B]

I personally do not place much value on other folks puppies. Not taking away from those individuals being put together to create the puppies. The parents may be truly exceptional individuals, but their ability to pass those traits on may not be determined until they are gone often times, and that is why my opinion lies here.

As far as the market (seen by me the perspective buyer) goes, I've always placed more value on a stud. As the results are generally apparent far before that of puppies.


I did not answer the poll even though I lean more toward "no", as I've never sold puppies. And I don't look at bulldogs as a business at all.

[Officially Retired]

I personally do not place much value on other folks puppies. Not taking away from those individuals being put together to create the puppies. The parents may be truly exceptional individuals, but their ability to pass those traits on may not be determined until they are gone often times, and that is why my opinion lies here.

How well a dog actually produces is often determined after they're gone, true.

But how well a dog is likely to produce is very easy to figure out, with a high degree of accuracy, if one knows what they're looking at (performance and pedigree-wise).

If you have a legitimately-game dog, with exceptional ability in some key areas (stamina/intelligence), and if that dog has a high-percentage of littermates like that, and comes from two proven-producing, high % parents of a known prepotent bloodline, your odds of getting good dogs by breeding this specimen (especially linebreeding this specimen) are pretty much a sure thing.

However, if you have an unknown-ability/gameness dog, off of a low % litter, bred off unchecked (random-bred) parents ... who likewise came from unknown or low-percentage background ... your odds of success at the top of the food chain are almost assuredly going to be zero.




As far as the market (seen by me the perspective buyer) goes, I've always placed more value on a stud. As the results are generally apparent far before that of puppies.

There have been some great success stories that began with key studs ... but also plenty who have begun with key bitches.

I think legit prepotency of the line, in back of legit quality/percentages-in-litter,are BOTH the necessary foundation of a good stud or bitch.




I did not answer the poll even though I lean more toward "no", as I've never sold puppies. And I don't look at bulldogs as a business at all.

How did you get your first dogs, if not via buying them from someone who was selling?

Jack

[S_B]

How did you get your first dogs, if not via buying them from someone who was selling?

Jack

They were given to me, and in 20 years with bulldogs I just purchased my 2nd dog only because she is of the same blood that I use and will benefit me if she is able to have pups.

Her breeder died unexpectedly, and it was a benefit to me as well as his living family. That is what led me to the decision to purchase the dog and drive over 1200 miles round trip to pick her up. Otherwise I may not have purchased her.

You see Jack, I honestly have never liked looking at bulldogs as a business. I think these dogs suffer enough at the hands of unqualified people who think they are dogmen. I feel very fortunate to have landed in a pile of pretty all around decent folks who's dogs for the most part were top priority.

But I'm no fool and I do see the need for top notch breeders such as yourself who offer well bred, healthy well cared for puppies to an ever growing market. But on the same token, as much as it is a disgrace to offer a quality pup for dollar store prices. It is also a disgrace that same pup at top shelf prices lands (often times) in the hands of a wealthy fool.

S_B

[Officially Retired]

There is a lot of truth in all of what you said ...

[loot]

No matter how much or how little someone pays for a pup we all know they all don't turn out. An the old saying is still true to this day the good one's are where you find them. I got most of my pups and older dogs from 1 person. He guarantee to replace a pup that didn't turn out to do what he said it should. The guarantee kept me going back. Then the price started going down. Over time I didn't need nothing but gas money to go an pick them up.

[Officially Retired]

No matter how much or how little someone pays for a pup we all know they all don't turn out.

Hear this all the time. And, in a sense, it's true.

However, they especially don't all turn out when you breed low-percentage, ill-bred dogs together. (Not saying you, but in general.)

By contrast, you can fix your gene pool to where you get all (or most all) of them to turn out, IF you linebreed off excellent individuals, from high-percentage litters.

There are certain dogs that produce so well, MOST of what they put down is game ... and even when you face one of the few curs ... they don't just roll over, you really gotta really whip them too ... if you can.




An the old saying is still true to this day the good one's are where you find them.

Hear this all the time, and in a sense that's true too ... but still addled.

Many people are confused as to "how" to produce good dogs ... hence all they talk about is "finding" good dogs, since they can't figure out how to reliably produce them.

But some people really do know how to produce good dogs, all the time, in every litter. They have the gene pool to do this, and the knowledge of how to manage it, so they can keep doing this.

After my third year breeding dogs, I never at any time, had problems producing BY FAR more good dogs tham bad, and by a country mile.

Time and again I have seen people come out with stuff that can't even be properly called "bulldogs," so far are they from legitimately good dogs.

I could see how folks like that are always trying to "find" good dogs, but I know (not "think," KNOW) I will always *always* be able to produce more game dogs than bad dogs, every single time I make a breeding, bar none.

And if a person can't say that, they're working with the wrong stuff IMO.

Not saying you, but just in general.




I got most of my pups and older dogs from 1 person. He guarantee to replace a pup that didn't turn out to do what he said it should. The guarantee kept me going back.

I have had a replacement guarantee also ... and almost never have had to use it.

The thing that kept people coming back to me wasn't "all the curs" I replaced (:lol:) ... it was the fact what they bought was game and good ... and they wanted MORE of that :idea:




Then the price started going down. Over time I didn't need nothing but gas money to go an pick them up.

And that's the way it should be :)

Once a person proves themselves a good handler/caregiver, most breeders will give them dogs, let them breed to their studs, etc.

Jack

[CRISIS]

I voted & commented before reading the thread.

Ive always believed you gotta pay to play. I was recently booted from a facebook group for rediculing folks of this very practice. 1. Cheap dicks typically tend to take "cheap" care of theyre dogs. If you cant pony up atleast a stack for a pup, then I personally dont want you behind anything with my name on it because chances are that pups gonna be cared for like shit.
2. Anything less than a stack would be a direct slap in the face with no regard to the hard work, blood sweat & tears thats behind the pup in question.
3. I dont know of ANYBODY who gives theyre best shit away for free. While id never be the one out shopping "for a pup", if I WAS all that $200 price tag is showing me is that your dogs are damn near wortless to you! And im supposed to feel confident as a consumer that this dog will turn out good? Ill take my chances elsewhere to the guy who values & thinks the world of theyre stock, if they dont take theyre dogs seriously....why should I?

[CRISIS]

..... ..

[Officially Retired]

all that $200 price tag is showing me is that your dogs are damn near wortless to you!

:idea:

[loot]

Hear this all the time. And, in a sense, it's true.

However, they especially don't all turn out when you breed low-percentage, ill-bred dogs together. (Not saying you, but in general.)

By contrast, you can fix your gene pool to where you get all (or most all) of them to turn out, IF you linebreed off excellent individuals, from high-percentage litters.

There are certain dogs that produce so well, MOST of what they put down is game ... and even when you face one of the few curs ... they don't just roll over, you really gotta really whip them too ... if you can.





Hear this all the time, and in a sense that's true too ... but still addled.

Many people are confused as to "how" to produce good dogs ... hence all they talk about is "finding" good dogs, since they can't figure out how to reliably produce them.

But some people really do know how to produce good dogs, all the time, in every litter. They have the gene pool to do this, and the knowledge of how to manage it, so they can keep doing this.

After my third year breeding dogs, I never at any time, had problems producing BY FAR more good dogs tham bad, and by a country mile.

Time and again I have seen people come out with stuff that can't even be properly called "bulldogs," so far are they from legitimately good dogs.

I could see how folks like that are always trying to "find" good dogs, but I know (not "think," KNOW) I will always *always* be able to produce more game dogs than bad dogs, every single time I make a breeding, bar none.

And if a person can't say that, they're working with the wrong stuff IMO.

Not saying you, but just in general.





I have had a replacement guarantee also ... and almost never have had to use it.

The thing that kept people coming back to me wasn't "all the curs" I replaced (:lol:) ... it was the fact what they bought was game and good ... and they wanted MORE of that :idea:





And that's the way it should be :)

Once a person proves themselves a good handler/caregiver, most breeders will give them dogs, let them breed to their studs, etc.

Jack

I agree with what you are saying.

[BLADE]

I would like to add an old saying, like anything else exceptions do exist but are still far and few between.... Good ain't cheap and cheap ain't good. I'm not implying that we shouldn't find ways to save money but IMO.. To get quality dogs, unless you are well connected or you happen to luck upon an exception, you will be ahead to do some home work and spend good money and don't look back.

[EWO]

I agree with you Jack, no one can tell you the price of your pups, initially. But if you are selling pups, horses, cars, real estate, does not matter, the buyer will dictate the selling price. If you say your dogs cost $2000 and no one is willing to pay $2000 how long can you continue being a breeder when all your pups are still at home. You can't. Just like any business you will adjust, or close up shot. And that adjustment is made when someone is willing to pay a said amount, the amount you set or a lower amount, but the buyer makes that call.

At the same time if a person pays $1500 for that puppy you asked $2K then at that point in time that puppy is valued at $1500. If later he goes on to win a few matches then his value is much more than $1500 and in turn if he produces a bunch of good dogs then his value will then far exceed the original purchase price of $1500. As the breeder/seller you could then exclaim that the pup was indeed worth the $2000 tag you originally set or more, and you would be correct.

But the moment in time when the puppy is sold the price can be dictated by the seller but the selling price will always be dictated by the buyer. Pups, cars, houses. Still the same. EWO

[widerange]

Anytime I see this topic or a topic like this come up I think of gr ch 35? We all know the store so I won't go into that but clearly this dog was a good dog that was bought at bottom dollar price. Clearly 35 dollars is a steal for a dog that makes great ch but his ped was unknown and in turn he didn't produce so was he really worth a lot? Maybe to some? To me at this stage in my career as a dogman he wouldn't be worth much as I look for producer to better my yard for the long run. I'm not well known as a breeder so my pups don't sell fast or for high dollars so in turn I sale few pups and try to sale to dogman I know at lower prices. Do I post pups for sale, yes I do but those people don't get the deal I give to people I know. I know lower prices hurt the breed. I hate saying that cause I feel at times good dogs go to bad owners cause the buyer had a few extra dollars to spend but that's the truth. If you ask 200 for a pup chances are your going to get some punk with a few dollars interested faster then you will a real dogman. But without this being directed st anyone just a general statement I believe top notch breeders can/will/do what they canctto put good dogs in good yards the best they can without just giving away everything they breed. I find these post interesting and educational to myself as I always try to take something away from them for my next buy or sale of stock so I look farward to hearing what else will be added

[Black Hand]

If nobody wants to pay for your dogs then A. Get better dogs or B. Do more with what you got. Maximize and let your dogs reach their full potential.

250 dollars is a working mans price? What do you do for a living... A paper route? :lol: that's like a direct tv bill

[Black Hand]

Anytime I see this topic or a topic like this come up I think of gr ch 35? We all know the store so I won't go into that but clearly this dog was a good dog that was bought at bottom dollar price. Clearly 35 dollars is a steal for a dog that makes great ch but his ped was unknown and in turn he didn't produce so was he really worth a lot? Maybe to some? To me at this stage in my career as a dogman he wouldn't be worth much as I look for producer to better my yard for the long run. I'm not well known as a breeder so my pups don't sell fast or for high dollars so in turn I sale few pups and try to sale to dogman I know at lower prices. Do I post pups for sale, yes I do but those people don't get the deal I give to people I know. I know lower prices hurt the breed. I hate saying that cause I feel at times good dogs go to bad owners cause the buyer had a few extra dollars to spend but that's the truth. If you ask 200 for a pup chances are your going to get some punk with a few dollars interested faster then you will a real dogman. But without this being directed st anyone just a general statement I believe top notch breeders can/will/do what they canctto put good dogs in good yards the best they can without just giving away everything they breed. I find these post interesting and educational to myself as I always try to take something away from them for my next buy or sale of stock so I look farward to hearing what else will be added

I'm pretty sure 35 was a great investment. I guarantee they made their money back ten fold lol

[Officially Retired]

250 dollars is a working mans price? What do you do for a living... A paper route? :lol: that's like a direct tv bill

:lol:

[widerange]

I'm pretty sure 35 was a great investment. I guarantee they made their money back ten fold lol

I never said they didnt. Its clear that they had to but.... Never mind this will take away from the post. I agree that 250 isn't working man prices that's is below working man

[ONP]

The risk, time, and money put in to producing quality dogs deserves to be returned. I'd gladly pay 1000 dollars for an honest dog from an honest man.

[EWO]

I have found the dogs to be honest. It is their human counterparts that leave a little to be desired. I would add one of those funny little yellow faces if I knew how. LOL. EWO

[No Quarter Kennel]

There are plenty of scumbags out there with more money then good sense, people who don't put in honest work for their money yet watch it come in hand over fist. These people don't have a true appreciation of the value of a dollar and aren't willing to get off their ass and scoop shit. There are also many honest people with families that bust their ass 40+ hours a week to provide for their household and their charges that may not have the extra 1000 it would take to bring a new one to the yard. My point is if you are selling to the general public the price tag you put on the pup will not be the deciding factor in the quality of hands it lands in. When I do a breeding I will do it because I honestly feel I am doing my best to improve the quality of the line of dogs I'm breeding and at the end of the day I will give pups to people I feel have the dogs and breeds best interest in mind before I will put a $800-$1000 dollar price tag to the highest bidder just because I think man with a larger bankroll will be the better provider for my hard work. If you are selling to the general public the price you put on your pups is merely your own desire for personal gain not a reflection of your concern for where your pup ends up. Just my two cents.

Great response and perspective.

[Pit Bull Committed]

Great poll/thread! I voted "NO" to answer the question asked in general...but I must say the price tag doesn't always reflect the quality of the dog even though the pedigree(a piece of paper) may present it that way or a cool war story is attached. I'd say the quality of a dog is determined by who is behind the dog and their "intentions" at the time of the sale.

[No Quarter Kennel]

There are exceptions, but 99 out of 100 times, a low price tag like that is not indicative of quality animals bred from quality stock.
I produced 8 pups last year. Sold 4 and gave 4 away. If I KNOW where this pup is headed and KNOW the pup's new owner or what is in store for this dog and it's a place I feel good about, it will most definitely alter the price in the buyer's favor, monetarily speaking. If I don't know you, I want to GET TO KNOW YOU before we decide to do business.

I am no Maurice Carver, Joseph P Colby, or Howard Heinzl, but I do care about my dogs and I sure do want to produce good ones and I want them to go to quality human beings. I will stand behind the pups or dogs I send to someone, won't mislead or lye to you about anything pertaining to them and believe those things combine to add up to a price tag reflective of that responsibility.

[loot]

There are exceptions, but 99 out of 100 times, a low price tag like that is not indicative of quality animals bred from quality stock.
I produced 8 pups last year. Sold 4 and gave 4 away. If I KNOW where this pup is headed and KNOW the pup's new owner or what is in store for this dog and it's a place I feel good about, it will most definitely alter the price in the buyer's favor, monetarily speaking. If I don't know you, I want to GET TO KNOW YOU before we decide to do business.




I am no Maurice Carver, Joseph P Colby, or Howard Heinzl, but I do care about my dogs and I sure do want to produce good ones and I want them to go to quality human beings. I will stand behind the pups or dogs I send to someone, won't mislead or lye to you about anything pertaining to them and believe those things combine to add up to a price tag reflective of that responsibility.
Great post, your the type of person that I would like do business with.

[Hushman]

Bad thing about selling a pup fr big $$$ is a lot of cats will breed that high priced dog just to get back sum that $$ they sent on the pup.Many won't even check the animal just breed it when it gets old enuff

[loot]

Bad thing about selling a pup fr big $$$ is a lot of cats will breed that high priced dog just to get back sum that $$ they sent on the pup.Many won't even check the animal just breed it when it gets old enuff


Now that's some real talk.

[TALLMAN]

I use to think selling the pups cheap was okay in that I only wanted to recover the expenses I had in the breeding. I usually gave away many to newbies to get them started and to established dog men to see just how good the breeding was. I never had any goal to make profits from puppy peddling. However, nobody treated me that way and I always paid big. 1,000 a pup was nothing back 30 years ago for the right thing. Once it was 600 cash, a new electric walker, a daughter of Pistol Pete, agreeing to raise the bitch, He or I to furnish the first 2 studs splitting the litters. All for a 5 week old sick pup in the 1980's, Off Black Betty and CH So SO. His pups and Betty died and he came armed to take the pup back. I borrowed Tom Garner's 12 gauge and kept the pup and we split 2 litters. That's my biggest pup price. The pups I've given to (dog men) had their papers changed and the rest were usually slaughtered before a year old. Sell them a cur for a grand and he'll be the greatest, get bred and live a good life. I'm changing my ways.

[Officially Retired]

Bad thing about selling a pup fr big $$$ is a lot of cats will breed that high priced dog just to get back sum that $$ they sent on the pup.Many won't even check the animal just breed it when it gets old enuff


Now that's some real talk.

That is not "bad" ... fucking off a dog's life because it was "cheap to do so" is worse.

Jack

[Hushman]

Breeding a high priced average,cold or cur is bad though.That's what fucks up the breed we all luv.U c it all the time!!!!I understand where ur coming from but at the same time u have to stop n c the negative is greater.All ur hard work could go down the drain when a dude breeds an unworthy animal just to get his coin back

[Officially Retired]

Breeding a high priced average,cold or cur is bad though.That's what fucks up the breed we all luv.U c it all the time!!!!I understand where ur coming from but at the same time u have to stop n c the negative is greater.All ur hard work could go down the drain when a dude breeds an unworthy animal just to get his coin back

That is all theoretical bullshit ... and exactly the opposite of the truth.

The only way my hard work has gone "down the drain" is when people have LOST my good dog, not "bred" my dogs they "didn't check."

The funniest part about the insanity of what you believe is that my two WORST producers when I got out were my "HARDEST-checked" (Pup Pup (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=968&thumbnail=2) and Super Red (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=974)).

Being "hard checked" has NOTHING to do with producing ability. You simply have no idea WTH you're taking about.

I could produce better dogs with "unchecked" dogs of my line than most people could produce with "hard checked" scatter-bred mutts.

Jack

[Hushman]

Jack I was not being specific about your line and your dogs I was talking more in general.there are many people out there who sell their dogs for big money only to have that high priced dog bred when it shouldn't be.I personally believe a dog needs to prove itself in the box just like its parents,grandparents, uncles,aunts,sibling..etc.but that's just how we do.not saying its the end all be all just our way.nothing more

[Hushman]

Once u sell a dog u have NO control of what that person is it going to do it.that was more the point I was trying to make.

[Officially Retired]

Jack I was not being specific about your line and your dogs I was talking more in general.there are many people out there who sell their dogs for big money only to have that high priced dog bred when it shouldn't be.I personally believe a dog needs to prove itself in the box just like its parents,grandparents, uncles,aunts,sibling..etc.but that's just how we do.not saying its the end all be all just our way.nothing more

But here's the thing: if other people are SUCKING at breeding dogs, then their POOR RESULTS (or NO results) is all the criticism that's needed.

If somebody wants to breed untested, non-athletic, dogs together ... why should I care?

I am not going to be buying their dogs.
Their dogs do not affect me.

I just don't see (nor will I ever) how worrying about what others do benefits me in any way.

I think that GOOD dogs are WORTH MONEY.
I think MY TIME, MY EFFORT, and MY EXPERIENCE are worth money.

So to go off on some tangent about green blowhards, breeding untested dogs, and how this "ruins the breed" has NOTHING to do with THE POINT.

I agree, pups from green blowhards, breeding untested shit, are NOT going to command the same price as a proven breeder breeding his best dogs together.

And if a MFer can't tell the difference, then HE IS A DUMBASS.

But to argue and digress to talk "only" about idiots breeding paper is as stupid as wanting to say the best-bred dogs in the world should only be $300.
BOTH ARE WRONG.

It seems nobody wants to be SENSIBLE and think correctly ... they only want to argue one extreme stupidity or the other :rolleyes:

[Officially Retired]

And I personally would rather see "unchecked, well bred dogs" be overpriced ... than to see TRULY well-bred, healthy, vibrant pups disrespected by being sold for a newspaper price.

To devalue these dogs is a worse crime in my eyes than to get a little carried away in price :idea:

Because the truth is DOG BUTCHERS and BROKE MOFOS are the only ones who don't think these dogs are worth a good price.

[Hushman]

I don't know anything bout Dog Butchers n broke mofos.I personally have spent big $$$ on dogs n so have others in our circle.Sum made it other sleep w/the fishes.Just part of the game

[Officially Retired]

Here is something that will shed light on everything:

What TRULY GREAT DOGS have "you and your camp" produced with your ideas/methods of selection and beliefs?

[Hushman]

Taz Loco,Holy Mary,Maya, Chuchillo,Fantasmo...Like I said just our way of doing things.But it works fr us,not knocking ANYBODYS ideas/methods.We're not "Breeders" ,nor do we sell dogs to the public

[Officially Retired]

Here is something that will shed light on everything:
What TRULY GREAT DOGS have "you and your camp" produced with your ideas/methods of selection and beliefs?
Taz Loco,Holy Mary,Maya, Chuchillo,Fantasmo...Like I said just our way of doing things.But it works fr us,not knocking ANYBODYS ideas/methods.We're not "Breeders" ,nor do we sell dogs to the public

First of all, credit to you for posting the dogs ... although it would be helpful if you'd post the links to your dogs, so we can pull out the ol' microscope.

Taz Loco (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=32815)
Holy Mary (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=308831)
Fantasmo (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=408982)

I could only find 3 of the 5 dogs you posted, 2 of which were on the other site, so let us examine their quality and "greatness," objectively.

Objectively-speaking, from the 3 dogs you posted, whose links I could find, there are 2 wins, 3 losses (all game).
That is a 40% win record, a 60% loss record, and a 100% "show game" record.

It seems like you have got an outstanding, consistent idea about gameness, and have that key aspect under control, which is awesome.
However, it seems you have a lot of room for improvement when it comes to the ability to win :idea:
Maybe the other dogs I couldn't find will bring up your quotients, I don't know, but (based on what I could find) your dogs' win record is actually below average.

In order to win more than you lose, you need other key factors besides "being checked" for gameness.
However, your gameness percentages are OUTSTANDING, and hey, that is where everything starts IMO.

If you keep your gameness percentages, and (through expert selection) double your % win record, do you think your dogs will be "worth more" than the average guy selling dogs?

Because that is about where I was, when I stopped breeding dogs, 87% win record/92% win-or-show-game, over 20 years and several hundred fights, so I think even a green guy breeding two dogs he got from me should still be able to charge more for his pups than some bozo breeding mix-bred mutts together.

Maybe the green guy, if he doesn't know what he's looking for, will ruin the quality over time ... but that part is on him.

I still think WELL BRED dogs of this breed deserve a price that justifies what they go through to be able to produce.

People who buy dogs "to go through them" NEVER really succeed.
People who buy dogs AS INVESTMENTS to build their yard up, are the ones who make it off the ground and eventually take off.

That has been my repeated and consistent observation.

Ultimately, there is a difference between a guy who buys dogs just to fight, a guy who buys dogs to build his yard up and really get a group of great dogs for his own success, and a guy who buys dogs just to breed/sell dogs (with no thought of selection/quality).

It has always been pretty obvious to me who-was-who ...

Anyway, take care.

Jack

[ragedog10]

This is a great topic and not to change it,but the tone of it. I have paid great money for some great Dogs! Paid good money for some well bred stock from great breeders that were not worth a red cent of what I had to pay for him or her!
The saleman has something you want and his price is his price may it be high or low you as a buyer can choose to pay it or move on!

Paid $600 bucks for BAD A$$ bulldog who was one of the best ever beat two great camps with him! Then on the same token I have also paid $50. Bucks for bad ass great bred Game dog as a puppy. We beat his father who was picked up!
His breeder got out of dogs a few years later and one day in our convo he told me he had three pups left.So i stop by a left with this pup and only paid $50.Bucks for this*puppy, in the next three years was true to his line game as hell with no dam abilty!
Another example is paid top $$$ for a very well bred propect who turned out to be a ruff ass cur that based on how he was bred people were lined up to breed to him he was snipped and put out on a chain were he lived the rest of his day as a well bred expensive cur that got me cussed out by the wife everytime she looked at him! Lol

Now we dont do much breedings unless we feel it in our bones that we will have something to carry us into the next phase! With that said,had a chance to get something that was never offered to anyone before she was a lot of money for a puppy but this puppy turned out to be the best bitch we have ever owned we then had to pay top $$$ for a stud fee. That breeding we were asked many of times to sale one or two but the answer was none are for sale.They would then ask,"well if you did happen to sale one what would my price be?" Answer was three grand$$$! Why that much for a puppy they ask, "BECAUSE TO( ME)" they were priceless and if you want what I think the world of it's going to cost ya! Lol

Now we have never sold a dog or pup as of yet but does not mean that we wont!

Now if breeding dogs is your bread and butter and john doe comes a calling for a dog/pup then the price is set by "you" be it high or low! High price or low price has nothing to do with giving this breed a bad name!
People who buy this breed or any breed of dog and does not take the time to take care for this responsibility,, to house,feed,clean,spend time with them.Are who give the dog a bad look!
Not the breeder who has 20,30,100 "HEALTHY"dogs. His yard is clean and dogs look like pure bred happy dogs! He (the breeder) sold them(the buyer) a happy fat puppy.The buyer let that well bred ( High $ or low $) puppy die of heat stroke or starve out on the chain or in it's kennel run!

Now as for "Me" it would piss me off if i did sale a person a puppy for big money or be it chicken shit and found out that this person allowed that to happen to my hard work! Nothing I could do about it besides no longer sale dogs to them.

To say that you could careless what the next person did with their dog/puppy( years of your hard work) is understanable! To each his own!! B,u,t B,U,T when that is being done with your hard work it has to touch you in some type of way! No you cant do anything about it no longer "Your" dog! Very true!
To beable to feel nothing when something like this were to happen, It has had to have happen to you very often. You have built up a shell/wall and turned of the give a freak switch! No?
Bottom line is be it .50cents or 300,stacks for a puppy if he or she makes "YOU" happy then so be it!

So I dont think cheap pups are a disgrace to the breed. We as humans place a value on something that might not be worth a dam to the next person but means the world to you!
"IF I WERE A BREEDER"
I would look at it like this we run a line of working dogs right.
Now what that dogs labor/job is would deam his worth by how good of a working dog he or she is at said job. Depending on how important the job of this dog is to me would place a maket value on these said line of dogs.
Being in this breed of dog who really has no job that is helpful,they would have no value as they dont help hunt,haul fire wood and so on.
Now with what this line is bred for and used for then they start to have a value if that is what we are looking for out of them.
With this for "Me" value is placed on how many years will these line of bulldogs keep getting me to the winning circle,how long has said breeder been putting out not just good but GREAT BULLDOGS that are true to form for what the line is known to throw. Are these dogs coming down throw dog's that can compete any where on God's green earth. Now my next question would be to myself can I afford this asking price of the breeder. Now if I were the breeder the same rules would apply with added time to wean,clean keep multi litters happy and healthy.
I think the breeder of unhealthy,worm filled belly living in their own waste puppies for high price or low price is the REAL DISGRACE!!! To the breed and the line of dogs he is pumping out!


Truth be told these scum bags are the very ones who keep the real breeders name on the breedings to fetch top dollar for these culls with the real breeders name behind them.And once that sub family of piss poor health and breedings start to take a nose dive its the name of that true GAME DOG BREEDER who's name get dragged thru the mud and a GAME line of dogs are looked at sideways because of these FUCK UPs!

What you eat dont make me shit.

[loot]

This is a great topic and not to change it,but the tone of it. I have paid great money for some great Dogs! Paid good money for some well bred stock from great breeders that were not worth a red cent of what I had to pay for him or her!
The saleman has something you want and his price is his price may it be high or low you as a buyer can choose to pay it or move on!

Paid $600 bucks for BAD A$$ bulldog who was one of the best ever beat two great camps with him! Then on the same token I have also paid $50. Bucks for bad ass great bred Game dog as a puppy. We beat his father who was picked up!
His breeder got out of dogs a few years later and one day in our convo he told me he had three pups left.So i stop by a left with this pup and only paid $50.Bucks for this*puppy, in the next three years was true to his line game as hell with no dam abilty!
Another example is paid top $$$ for a very well bred propect who turned out to be a ruff ass cur that based on how he was bred people were lined up to breed to him he was snipped and put out on a chain were he lived the rest of his day as a well bred expensive cur that got me cussed out by the wife everytime she looked at him! Lol

Now we dont do much breedings unless we feel it in our bones that we will have something to carry us into the next phase! With that said,had a chance to get something that was never offered to anyone before she was a lot of money for a puppy but this puppy turned out to be the best bitch we have ever owned we then had to pay top $$$ for a stud fee. That breeding we were asked many of times to sale one or two but the answer was none are for sale.They would then ask,"well if you did happen to sale one what would my price be?" Answer was three grand$$$! Why that much for a puppy they ask, "BECAUSE TO( ME)" they were priceless and if you want what I think the world of it's going to cost ya! Lol

Now we have never sold a dog or pup as of yet but does not mean that we wont!

Now if breeding dogs is your bread and butter and john doe comes a calling for a dog/pup then the price is set by "you" be it high or low! High price or low price has nothing to do with giving this breed a bad name!
People who buy this breed or any breed of dog and does not take the time to take care for this responsibility,, to house,feed,clean,spend time with them.Are who give the dog a bad look!
Not the breeder who has 20,30,100 "HEALTHY"dogs. His yard is clean and dogs look like pure bred happy dogs! He (the breeder) sold them(the buyer) a happy fat puppy.The buyer let that well bred ( High $ or low $) puppy die of heat stroke or starve out on the chain or in it's kennel run!

Now as for "Me" it would piss me off if i did sale a person a puppy for big money or be it chicken shit and found out that this person allowed that to happen to my hard work! Nothing I could do about it besides no longer sale dogs to them.

To say that you could careless what the next person did with their dog/puppy( years of your hard work) is understanable! To each his own!! B,u,t B,U,T when that is being done with your hard work it has to touch you in some type of way! No you cant do anything about it no longer "Your" dog! Very true!
To beable to feel nothing when something like this were to happen, It has had to have happen to you very often. You have built up a shell/wall and turned of the give a freak switch! No?
Bottom line is be it .50cents or 300,stacks for a puppy if he or she makes "YOU" happy then so be it!

So I dont think cheap pups are a disgrace to the breed. We as humans place a value on something that might not be worth a dam to the next person but means the world to you!
"IF I WERE A BREEDER"
I would look at it like this we run a line of working dogs right.
Now what that dogs labor/job is would deam his worth by how good of a working dog he or she is at said job. Depending on how important the job of this dog is to me would place a maket value on these said line of dogs.
Being in this breed of dog who really has no job that is helpful,they would have no value as they dont help hunt,haul fire wood and so on.
Now with what this line is bred for and used for then they start to have a value if that is what we are looking for out of them.
With this for "Me" value is placed on how many years will these line of bulldogs keep getting me to the winning circle,how long has said breeder been putting out not just good but GREAT BULLDOGS that are true to form for what the line is known to throw. Are these dogs coming down throw dog's that can compete any where on God's green earth. Now my next question would be to myself can I afford this asking price of the breeder. Now if I were the breeder the same rules would apply with added time to wean,clean keep multi litters happy and healthy.
I think the breeder of unhealthy,worm filled belly living in their own waste puppies for high price or low price is the REAL DISGRACE!!! To the breed and the line of dogs he is pumping out!


Truth be told these scum bags are the very ones who keep the real breeders name on the breedings to fetch top dollar for these culls with the real breeders name behind them.And once that sub family of piss poor health and breedings start to take a nose dive its the name of that true GAME DOG BREEDER who's name get dragged thru the mud and a GAME line of dogs are looked at sideways because of these FUCK UPs!

What you eat dont make me shit.

Very true

[bolero]

That is all theoretical bullshit ... and exactly the opposite of the truth.

The only way my hard work has gone "down the drain" is when people have LOST my good dog, not "bred" my dogs they "didn't check."

The funniest part about the insanity of what you believe is that my two WORST producers when I got out were my "HARDEST-checked" (Pup Pup (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=968&thumbnail=2) and Super Red (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=974)).

Being "hard checked" has NOTHING to do with producing ability. You simply have no idea WTH you're taking about.

I could produce better dogs with "unchecked" dogs of my line than most people could produce with "hard checked" scatter-bred mutts.

Jack
its not about being checked hard it is about being looked at period. if someone continually breeds dog that have never shown there skills then you will eventually not have working dogs ne more.

[S_B]

Great post @, Ragedog10

[EWO]

So I dont think cheap pups are a disgrace to the breed. We as humans place a value on something that might not be worth a dam to the next person but means the world to you!



This is a very true statement. EWO

[Officially Retired]

its not about being checked hard it is about being looked at period. if someone continually breeds dog that have never shown there skills then you will eventually not have working dogs ne more.

Very true. Skills are what need to be evaluated mostly (all without ever making a bad move), because if a person is not evaluating their dog's skills ... it will show up in their win record (or lack of win record) ... even if they're "testing hard."

Just because people buy cheap dogs from people, and those cheap pups happen to turn out, doesn't mean cheap pups are "more likely" to turn out.
It pretty much means they got lucky ... or they knew the guy.
And just because people pay high $$ for pups, that don't turn out, doesn't mean "all" high $ pups don't turn out.
It either means they got unlucky or it means they can't tell the difference from a quality pedigree and a 'pretty' (but empty) pedigree.

The bottom line is, MOST people who are smart enough to have/breed good dogs, that are significantly more likely to turn out, are also smart enough to know that their dogs are therefore worth more than what's being put out there by the average guy.

Jack

[bolero]

to me it is all relative i never paid over 500 for a dog but i also put in work. i went and visited the yard cleaned shit and worked with the dogs ad now i have been offered free dogs for the work i did

[Officially Retired]

to me it is all relative i never paid over 500 for a dog but i also put in work. i went and visited the yard cleaned shit and worked with the dogs ad now i have been offered free dogs for the work i did

As well you should.

Being interested enough to help someone out, and gaining a person's trust/appreciation is a whole other deal.

I've given dogs to good folks myself. I was speaking of complete strangers wanting dogs.

[widerange]

I hope this is still on topic and not already covered as I read the post awhile back and hope I haven't missed anything but a price of a dog can cahange depending on who is selling it. I have no problemsaying I'm not as well known as others in these dogs so say me and jack go to the same yard and are given a dog out of a litter that is worth 1200 Jack takes his ask for 1200 and I take mine and ask for 800. No doubt jack not only gets the 1200 I bet he sells his faster. Nothing is wrong with that. He is a better known person then myself, again I'm okay with that since I'm just working on being known but is that 1200 dollar dog better then the 800? My point is you have to be smart enough to look at the big picture when buying a dog. Know the ped, the history, the seller and last the price. I hope my thoughts came out here in away that make sense but if not feel free to ask for me to explain better.

[S_B]

Know the ped, the history, the seller and last the price.

I can agree with that, maybe I'd change the order to better fit my needs such as... Know the Dogman (seller), the history, the pedigree and lastly the price.

S_B

[widerange]

I can agree with that, maybe I'd change the order to better fit my needs such as... Know the Dogman (seller), the history, the pedigree and lastly the price.

S_B yeah I didn't have those in any order just a list

[Moonlight]

I'm Living in a small Country where in Most places Bulldogs Are forbidden. The pressure against them. Was so High that Most good People got out of the dogs. The history with These dogs was too Short to cover the Bad press. So here is absolutely no market for game breed dogs. The only thing you could sell with super high Prize are the bullys etc😁. The Gamedogpeople, the few that remaind went all underground- There is no Publicity left. No advertising no internet nothing.

So WE Are only breeding for ourselfs, Friends and Family with the Result that we do Not breed that much. So breeding Bulldogs over here is more about Trading animals and farming them out etc. Than selling them. Over here you are glad to find a good Home for a good dog.

I got the full Sence and Intention of Jacks Poll- but it is Not Fitting our Situation in our Country. When i bought my dogs i had to first become friend with the breeder often visiting and then got 4 dogs for 2.000 with Puppy options for the breeder. As I statet before- you could Not Sale a a game bred dog to People You Dont know. The risks are to high.

[BigEazy]

The only reason for selling a bulldog for $200, is if it's a person that you are mentoring. To make them appreciate the breed and the animal. Anything else is uncivilized...

[Einstein]

$200 is a disgrace

[Frank43]

zombie thread

[brasso]

I like this site, but having to dig up these old posts.... Anyway, it's no one's business how people price their dogs.

[Einstein]

Very very disgraceful

[T.Vitale]

Who care the man is a fool n only dragging him n his dogs down but truth be told them dogs he bred are probably not worthy of breathing so....

[BONEDADDY]

I don't breed often. Just to get what I want. Sometimes I will give some away or sell to people I know cheap. There is no money to be made in breeding dogs.

[Fireball]

This is a very interesting topic of discussion fellas I have sold pups for 200 before you can't tell a man what price tag to put on his hound's its just like shopping for bargains u just got to know what you buying

[Fireball]

Very well said

[EWO]

It is an old thread and an age old discussion. I participated back then and still pretty much feel the same. The buyer always dictates the price.

The puppy, or the car or the house or the horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay and that is regardless of the asking price.

If a guy asks $200 for his puppies that is his business. If someone haggles him to $150 then that particular puppy is worth $150 at that time. And like anything it will appreciate or depreciate in time.

EWO